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Can circumstantial evidence convict Casey Anthony? Yes, it can.

September 16, 2009

Much ado was made about the local Florida news special on whether or not the prosecution has enough casey anthony with blank stareevidence to nail Casey with the death penalty. They insinuated  there could be a big hole in their case.  Their contention was there was a mountain of circumstantial evidence against Casey Anthony, but is that enough to convict?  Without knowing the cause of death, can the prosecution seal the deal?

“The prosecution still has no evidence how she died,” attorney Richard Hornsby told WESH 2 News.  “Was it accidental or intentional?  If their goal is to get the death penalty, they need to come up with that evidence. It’s way too weak.”

Really?

“It suggests a certain level of commitment or premeditation,” Tom Luka,  Lee Anthony’s ex-attorney, and a prosecutor of around 50 homicides, countered.  He says prosecutors  can use Casey Anthony’s own lies and deception to fill the hole in their case. “If it was an accident, then the prosecution can hammer the jury with why didn’t she come clean initially,” he said.

We all know that Caylee’s autopsy gave no indication of how she died–though there were clues  (like the duct tape)  that it might not have been accidental, and the coroner stated flatly that she ruled it a homicide. Still, there are  a lot of folks following the case that don’t believe Caylee was murdered and that it could very well have been an accident.  They argue that without hard evidence of how Caylee died,  it would be hard for them to convict Casey of premeditated murder.

Again, I say, really???

In the United States, the law shows no distinction between circumstantial and direct evidence in terms of which has more weight or importance. Both types of evidence may be enough to establish the defendant’s guilt, depending on how the jury finds the facts of the case.

probable cause.org LINK

So, what do we know about the facts the state has?  We know there was a rare type of duct tape found on Caylee’s skull and on George’s gas can.  We know there was a smell of death in Casey’s car.  We know the decomposing  single hair found in the trunk  belonged to either Caylee or Casey (obviously wasn’t Casey’s).  We know about  web searches for chloroform and neck-breaking. We know that she didn’t report her child missing for 31 days while she partied like there was no tomorrow.  We know she didn’t report Caylee  missing at all–her mother did.  We know her friends say she acted perfectly normal during those 31 days.  We know about her deception and the wild goose chases she took LE on instead of helping them look for Caylee. We know she was serial liar.  We know there was no Zenaida Gonzales. This is some of the circumstantial evidence we KNOW the prosecution has, and just a few examples of  her “suspect” behavior.  This doesn’t count the stuff the prosecution has kept under their belt or will be releasing in the months leading up to Casey’s trial in 2010.

Circumstantial evidence –especially the amount of evidence we’ve seen  is very definitely enough to convict Casey Anthony.  Very few murder trials have hard evidence available to them.  I mean, unless someone witnessed the murder, isn’t most of it circumstantial?

What is the difference between circumstantial and direct evidence?

Circumstantial evidence is evidence that does not expressly prove that the person on trial is guilty of the crime. Rather, it infers that the person is guilty. An example of this is showing a receipt for a knife that the defendant purchased, thus inferring that the same person committed a crime with that knife.

On the other hand, direct evidence straight-forwardly shows that something is a fact without inference or presumption. An example of this is the testimony of a witness who saw the knife being used to commit a crime by the defendant.

probable cause.org LINK

Correct me if I’m wrong, please!

read it here:

wesh.com

66 Comments leave one →
  1. niecey456 permalink
    September 16, 2009 8:59 am

    Good Morning Mystery! GREAT POST !!! You nailed that down. I thought Wesh was suddenly taking the Geraldo approach. Geraldo is friends with Bozo because he’s hispanic. He doesn’t like Casey and says she most likely did it, but he says she has a fine upstanding attorney that has gotten a raw deal and his client’s rights have been violated. I could keep going, but it’s nausiating. The point is it seems that Wesh either has gained staff that feels that way about Bozo, or they are just plain out trying to take the opposite, extreme approach to compete with the ratings of Channel 9, whose opposite. Sort of a sensational, against the norm stance, as it gets attention. Notice Channel 9 has a legal analyst, so Wesh now has a legal analyst. From what I’ve gathered from Hornsby over time, he leans right straight toward Bozo. JMO.

    Hey Niecey! I think it’s probably all about ratings, but I guess they could just be trying to put a different point of view out there! I find it hard to believe that reporters that have been following this case as closely as the bloggers really think Casey is innocent. Of course in a perfect world, there would be no bias from the media–just straight reporting……..

  2. BEES KNEES permalink
    September 16, 2009 9:45 am

    It’s a great post, Mystery! But, is there really a lot of people believing Caylee’s death was accidental? I haven’t come across any of that in my surfing but maybe I’m just not reading the blogs who support that theory. I agree with your point about circumstantial evidence. How often do we see a murder committed? I have to believe that a premeditated murder would NEVER be witnessed. I’ve never seen one and no one I know has ever seen one. Same with motive and weapon ~ those are not always recoverable. Although I get all wound up when I watch something like Judge Rod. last week, I still believe Casey will come face to face with cold, hard justice.

    Hi Bees! I think there are a group of people (not anywhere near as large as those who believe her to be guilty) that sympathize with and believe Casey. Remember the people sending her money in jail? And then there’s those trying to establish reasonable doubt.

    I would think a premeditated murder would have only been seen by accident or someone helping the murderer might decide to turn state’s evidence.

  3. ostella permalink
    September 16, 2009 9:57 am

    Two words: Scott Peterson

    Yep!!!

  4. ostella permalink
    September 16, 2009 9:58 am

    2 more words: 31 days

    Yep! Yep!

  5. chuck permalink
    September 16, 2009 10:01 am

    This is so crazy..If it was an accident, then why didnt Crazy Casey call 911 or call police. If it was an accident why put duck tape over her mouth..(rare duct tape that came from thr Anthony’s garage)..If it was an accident why was she partying and carefree and didnt have a care in the world, and not upset over the accicent..If it was am accident, why lie and coverup everything and take police on a wild goose chase..If it was an accident why blame other people and think only about yourself. If it was an accident why laywer up and smile and smirk like you think you are fooling everybody..Hell no, IT WAS NO ACCIDENT..I will tell you one thing, if their are people out that believe that they most be drinking Jim Jones’s KOOL AID OR ARE FROM THE PLANET MARS..I dont think anybody is that stupid..The laywer is only saying that, because he is on th Anthonys side…Case Closed

    I’m with you 100% chuck. It was no accident. There’s no way to spin it into an accident. Casey has already added too many nails to her coffin for anyone to now go back and say, “Well, it was just an accident–she was scared, poor girl!”

  6. artgal16 permalink
    September 16, 2009 10:03 am

    I think the WESH article was purposely trying to be provocative. Here are some things we also know:
    We know Caylee a nearly three year old child could not have left on her own accord
    We know that Casey her mother who had custody of her was the last person she was seen with
    We know that on the very same evening of the day her father has said he saw both Casey and Caylee, Casey and Tony Lazzarro were renting
    movies sans Caylee and Caylee was never seen again.
    We know that Casey lied to the police and was NOT the person that reported her child missing.
    We know that her car was at Amscot and no one else drove her car which had the smell of decomposition and in her own words this fact is mentioned to Amy as a smell coming from a “squirrel”.
    The first point is very important. If this was an adult, it could be possible that an adult left on their own accord. In California in the 1950’s there was a case where a wealthy woman in her 60’s disappeared.
    She left behind money, her eyeglasses, her clothes = basically everything. He husband was tried and convicted of her murder without one piece of actual evidence. It was totally circumstantial and the conviction was held up on appeal. The basis of the appelate court to turn down the appeal was that even though as an adult this woman could have left on her own, it was not believable she would leave without any money (and she was quite wealthy) her eyeglasses, her clothes or notify even one friend. Therefore she must be dead (and in fact her body was never found). Its not necessary to prove motive, however, her husband inherited everything and it was thought the motive was money.
    But no one really knew for sure. Like Scott Peterson who now resides in prison, money or just freedom from Lacey might have been the motive
    and they did find Laceys body but no cause of death could be determined. Yet he was convicted. I cannot believe that Casey Anthony
    could possibly be found not guilty.

    Thanks Artgal for adding to the list! It’s actually quite a long list of strong circumstantial evidence. The cases you cited are just 2 of many many convictions based on circumstantial evidence–some far weaker than Casey’s.

  7. mikka permalink
    September 16, 2009 10:04 am

    we dont cant forget dr. g say homicide!this means it was no accident,and of course much murdercases are circumstantial ,and a body in the trunk thats more than circumstantial!

    mikka–the death smell in the trunk and the decomposing hair seem like pretty strong evidence to me–of course, it can’t be tied absolutely directly to Casey–even though she spoke of the smell to friends, but it sure as heck can be tied to her indirectly!

  8. BEES KNEES permalink
    September 16, 2009 10:08 am

    Chuck, I don’t believe it was an accident. I believe that Caylee was still alive when the duct tape was put over her mouth and nose. There used to be a theory that it may have been added later, in reaction to stop up bodily fluids, maggots etc. but the forensics support the tape being added BEFORE decomp. began, so that rules out that theory. I also believe that’s why the back of Caylee’s hair was matted because she was writhing back and forth while Casey murdered her. I know there’s another theory as to why the hair was matted but I find this theory more believable.

  9. chuck permalink
    September 16, 2009 11:06 am

    BeesKness, I know it is NOT AN ACCIDENT..That is what I said, if people think it was an accident, they are drinking Jim Jones’s KOOL AID or are from the planet Mars..

  10. BEES KNEES permalink
    September 16, 2009 11:37 am

    Sorry Chuck. I know that you know it was not an accident, I guess I might have worded it wrong. I was talking about the people who really do think it was. Months ago Dr. G. stated that although she could not give the cause of death she could (and did) say it was homicide. Dr. G. is good enough for me! And I agree about the Casey Kool-aid! It’s poison!!!

  11. Id'claire permalink
    September 16, 2009 11:48 am

    The smell of decomp will only be verified by the hits from the cadaver dogs.

    I believe the longest part of the trial (because it is most key) will be spent on the trunk forensics…presenting the evidence and then the defense refuting it.

    The second longest part will involve the woods with etymologists, botanists, Equisearch, Kronk, PI’s, etc

    This third largest segment will involve the timeline.

    The fourth all the witnesses per post mortum activity.

    The least amount of time will be the Anthony testimony. (I’m not sure if this will enrage them, as I’m sure they think they have a lot to say to help her, OR, if they will be relieved to be part of the audience, shaking their heads.)

    But who cares?
    Casey is innocent, right?

  12. Hilde permalink
    September 16, 2009 11:53 am

    contrary to the Belief of Casey’s Defense Team that the Prosecution only has
    circumstantial Evidence against Casey A. and therefore don’t have enough
    Evidence to convict their Client Casey A., I believe the Prosecution will
    present a solid Case and will be able to get a Conviction.
    Casey’s Defense Team would like to establish a reasonable Doubt that their Client didn’t commit this horrific Crime.
    Defense’s Strategy however unrealistic seems to be, there was no Eye Witness
    in Caylee’s Murder (DUH, how stupid is this) also the Manner how Caylee was murdered has not been established by the Prosecution.
    I guess Casey’s Defense Team believes it is in their Favor that only Remains of
    Caylee were found and therefore it was impossible to show how Caylee was murdered.
    I believe Casey Anthony will be convicted for the Murder of her Daughter Caylee.
    I don’t think she will get the DP, however it will be a Possibility, let’s say it wouldn’t surprise me if she did.
    I believe Casey Anthony will be convicted and sentenced to Life in Prison w/o
    Parole!

  13. itsamysterytome permalink*
    September 16, 2009 12:28 pm

    Hi! Answered your comments within the comment boxes!

  14. itsamysterytome permalink*
    September 16, 2009 12:28 pm

    Id’claire–I think your timeline for the trial is spot on. And I imagine the Anthonys will raise a stink like we’ve never seen before if the trial doesn’t go their way. That is if they aren’t preoccupied with their own charges. LOL

  15. itsamysterytome permalink*
    September 16, 2009 12:33 pm

    Hilde–I agree with you, and actually–if she gets life without parole I think that would be the best case scenario! The world will change and grow–everyone will move on—Miss Casey will realize she was never a “star” after all. Eventually her Mom, her greatest ally, and the only person that will not forget her, will pass away, and she’ll die a bitter old woman after living an excruciatingly long boring life.

    That sounds cruel, I know, but it’s reality.

  16. Hilde permalink
    September 16, 2009 12:49 pm

    mystery~~ no, what You said doesn’t sound cruel, it is just what it is. Yes, I agree for the Rest of us Life will go on.
    Casey really never was important when it comes to this Case. Caylee is the only one which is important and that Justice will be served for her Murder.
    Casey is just another Criminal awaiting her Trial, she chose to ruin her Life,the sad Thing is, she ruined so many other Life’s by her Actions. Not to mention she is responsible for taking Caylee’s Life, it doesn’t matter how You look at it, that just is the sad Fact. :(

    Hilde–You are right, of course! Caylee is the one who is important–unfortunately justice for Caylee appears to be only important to the prosecution and the people following this case.

  17. Felicity permalink
    September 16, 2009 1:54 pm

    We also “know” that several “shrinks” have said that she has ALL the traits of a sociopath. She is also a proven liar…hundreds of lies!

    Hi Felicity–I wonder if all else fails if that will be part of the defense’s strategy–She lied about everything because it’s “just part of her nature.” She can’t help it–she has a “condition”.

  18. September 16, 2009 4:16 pm

    hello everyone casey killed her daughter it was no accident thats for sure.she knew when to do it and when not to do it.that day was best for her which l mean casey.the 16th caylee was no longer with us.the 16th was the day that tony and casey went to rent a movie they have that proof.the othere is tony lazzoro he knew on this day that casey did not have caylee while casey stayed for good at his place.caylee was gone by that timeline.the kid wAs all that time in the woods because of the water this little girls body was going back and forth this is why they did not find her when they thought they looked l am not believing that the body was moved no l dont.it takes at least 6 months to grow that vegitation dont forget that weed went through her body and l saw it else where some one else that did mention that as well.this was not a accident people.the drugs that she used to sedate caylee plus casey was afraid to the kid awaking in the trunk so she put the tape around her mouth and nose.people wake up l hope casey fries the gate will open their door and someone will pull out the red carpet for her majesty to walk through those doors the queen is here open sesamy street for little casey coming now make sure the bed is ready for her.good luck to you casey.people have a good day.will be back tomorrow okay?

    Hey anniepaws– I agree with you. The vegetation growing threw the bones will be hard to disprove though the defense will for sure have their own “expert” witnesses trying to throw chinks into the prosecution’s “expert” witnesses.

  19. Molly permalink
    September 16, 2009 5:46 pm

    Great post & research mystery.

    If anyone is going to start toteing the “accident” theory, her actions, frame of mind, & “nonreaction” to her daughter “accidently” dying for the 31 days following will tell the whole story. All of her actions show that she knew Caylee was gone & she moved on in her life very happily.
    Also why wrap duct tape around your daughters mouth, throw her in some garbage bags & then toss her in the woods. Casey has never shown that she has been affected by the loss of her daughter.

    If it was really an accident, why sit in jail for nearly a year now & take the risk of being put to death for murder if it was an accident.

    Yep. There’s no way the accidental thing will fly, because there is no reason on earth to risk the death penalty if it were an accident.

  20. Laura permalink
    September 16, 2009 7:29 pm

    Great Post!!!! I think they have plenty with the 31 days and the fact when the police WAS called it was not by Casey. In my opinion that is a guilty mother, not one scared for her daughter. I am guessing not to many babies die accidentally with duct tape over their mouths, two year olds don’t commit suicide and we know it was not natural causes. What other option do they have for the death certificate but homicide??? Some attorneys lack common sense!

    The duct tape, not calling, the death smell in the car, no nanny, the lies, etc. all seem to make it pretty cut and dried….but I’m sure it won’t be.

  21. Id'claire permalink
    September 16, 2009 7:57 pm

    Topical Question:

    Does Casey fear incarceration?

    Does she fear the dp?

    I don’t think Casey thinks that far ahead, Id’claire. She lives in the moment, remember?

  22. mikka permalink
    September 16, 2009 8:14 pm

    idclaire,
    i am sure she fear the D.P,but i think casey still believe she will walk free!

  23. Jill from Western Australia permalink
    September 16, 2009 11:02 pm

    Thanks for keeping us all up to date Mystery.

    Id’claire…yours is a very well thought out scenario that will probably be correct…thanks for sharing.

    Hugs ♥♥♥

  24. Jill from Western Australia permalink
    September 17, 2009 12:07 am

    I wonder if this is why Jim Lichenstein has been hanging round with Cindy?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5262971n&tag=cbsnewsSidebarAboveMPUArea.1;cbsnewsSidebarAboveMPUArea.1

    Promo for the 2009 fall season of “48 Hours” … have a barf bucket handy!

    By airing this before the murder trial it should blow a change of venue out of the window as ALL of Florida has the opportunity to watch this show…grrrrrrr!

    Hugs ♥♥♥

    Thanks for the link, Jill! I just posted on it.

  25. itsamysterytome permalink*
    September 17, 2009 5:43 am

    Good morning!
    I responded to the comments in the comment boxes!

  26. Patricia permalink
    September 17, 2009 10:07 am

    Jill Thanks for the link to 48 hours… I just posted and asked them not to air it before the trial…… we need to pass this link along on other sites & get everyone to ask CBS to wait until after the trial….

  27. itsamysterytome permalink*
    September 17, 2009 10:47 am

    Good idea Patricia!

  28. September 28, 2009 2:18 am

    Yes, I really do believe the State has a weak First Degree Murder case; and I also agree with all of you that she is guilty of a crime. In my personal opinion,it is more than likely Aggravated Child Neglect which resulted in the death.

    Anyway, what most people fail to remember is that innocent and not guilty are not the same thing. Meaning, you can be found not guilty and be “not innocent” at the same time. All that a not guilty verdict means is that the state did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

    And while I would love to debate every nuance of the case (I just randomly came across this looking for something) the fact is much of the damaging evidence the public salivates over likely will not be admissible (jail video, GHB statement to bond agent, etc).

    At the same time, most everyone is horrified by her conduct after Caylee went missing (or more aptly, she was caught). But the fact remains, there is no evidence about how Caylee actually died – none.

    I know there are rumors of internet searches of neck breaking, chloroform, etc. But from an evidentiary stand point, the State will have a tough time introducing them because they were made in Feb and so many people had access to the computer (plus Caylee’s neck was not broken).

    In any event, the question for me is not if Casey is guilty; rather, the question for me is what is she guilty of – or more precisely, as a defense attorney, what can the State prove beyond a reasonable doubt. And for me, having tried my fair share of “slam dunk trials for the state” – and won, the State better come up with some solid evidence about how Caylee died AND solid evidence on her premeditation to kill Caylee if they want to get a First Degree Murder charge to stick.

    Now, no one has ever asked me what I think about the counts 2 – 7 of her Indictment, and I am pretty sure the State will convict her of those.

    All the best,
    Richard

    p.s. I would also disagree that I lean right towards “bozo.” I am a Criminal Defense Attorney by profession (Board Certified no less). I simply call balls and strikes about the legal questions I am presented to comment on. More often than not I have been critical of Baez’s handling of the case, because it is true. Unfortunately though, the public has become a lynch mob and has blind hatred for Casey, expects everything to make it into court as evidence, and do not analyze the case dispassionately. I cannot do that and will not do that, as a commentator or as a lawyer.

  29. itsamysterytome permalink*
    September 28, 2009 8:08 am

    Richard

    Thanks for taking the time to clarify your opinion here, and for providing your credentials and the basis for that opinion. From what you’ve just said, you believe she will still be put away for a long time– just not on a 1st degree murder charge. You think she most likely accidentally killed her daughter through some neglectful act on her part.

    My question then is what about the 31 days it took to report Caylee missing–and then only after Cindy Anthony called 911– not Casey? And what about her documented unbelievable behavior during those 31 days or the death smell in her car. Those things are really hard to explain away if you’re going to say it was an accidental death aren’t they?

    For those that don’t remember the charges he was referring to in the Grand Jury Indictment:

    1. 1st degree murder
    2. Aggravated child abuse
    3. Aggravated manslaughter of a child
    4. Providing false information to a law enforcement officer
    5. Providing false information to a law enforcement officer
    6. Providing false information to a law enforcement officer
    7. Providing false information to a law enforcement officer

    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/8391561/Casey-Anthony-Grand-jury-indictment-14-October-2008

  30. niecey456 permalink
    September 28, 2009 8:33 am

    Mr. Hornsby, I think you are a stand up guy for responding. Thank you. I feel I need to clarify some of my statements. First, I’m not of the lynch mob mentality. I never agreed with the protesters, and I don’t feel the need for Casey to get the DP. I do feel she is a threat to society based on all of her behavior. However, I understand you are looking at it from your professional stand point which is criminal defense attorney. I’m looking at it from the stand point that not only as Mystery stated, that she waited the 31 days, and her mother had to call, but she duct taped that child’s mouth, to the degree that it held her hair on her head after she was decomposed. I don’t think the duct tape was put there after death and to me it shows intent. I do not believe it was an accident. I don’t believe that if it were an accident that she would have driven around trying to find a way to get rid of her decomposing body from her trunk. No loving mother could have done these things. A loving mother would have called 911 when the accident occurred.
    With that said, I can say this: I’ve done a great deal of research on the “Florida Sunshine Law”, and we don’t have the hard evidence. We have mostly the throw away stuff, as you kind of insinuated. I don’t think Casey will get the DP, and I have at times felt as though she may not get life, but I do feel as though she will get the best years of her life. With that said. I apologize for comparing you to Geraldo, as he is a sensationalist and he has fueled the Baez complaint that people are picking on him because he’s hispanic, which is ridiculous. I don’t think Baez is a good attorney, as he himself has thrown Casey under the bus on many occasions, and he is the “leak”. I could go on and on. I’ve done my homework on him and his “dream team” too. I feel they are a disgrace to the profession. JMO.

  31. September 28, 2009 9:02 am

    Okay, as a defense attorney here is a fairly straight forward theory that fits in your “damming facts.”

    31 days of strange conduct – After Caylee likely died.
    Smell of death in car – After Caylee died.

    So, using those facts let’s just hypothesize for a minute about the possibility of an accidental death scenario. (No one seems to have a problem doing so about a pre-meditated death scenario.) And my hypothesis will be based only on documented evidence.

    We know about a month before Caylee was discovered missing, Casey made multiple phone calls to her mother, father, and brother – no one answered. The cell records put Casey at her parent’s home (or near there).

    What if those calls were made because Caylee was in a bad accident, a drowning perhaps, and Casey was frantic for help but didn’t get any. By this time Casey has passed away, Casey does not know what to do, and she is likely going crazy.

    We know that her mother is an over-bearing and bi-polar; but most importantly seems to have a stronger bond with Caylee than Casey. So Casey is probably mortified about her mother finding out and blaming her (Casey) for the death.

    So Casey does what many a 22 year-old immature person would do and tries to cover things up until she can figure out what to do. She places Caylee in the back of her car (the resulting smell of death) and then tries to pretend it never happened. While I am no psychologist, I am sure she begins losing touch with reality (She was obviously unstable to begin with). – thus Ugly Coping would actually be a good defense IF YOU WERE SEEKING TO AVOID THE MURDER CHARGE. But Mr. Baez seems intent on presenting an Actual Innocence defense which is inconsistent, but could obviously be re-evaluated later.

    Obviously at some point the smell starts to become noticeable and this is probably when she puts Caylee in woods (thus neighbors shovels being used). But her car probably has the smell, so she ditches it and avoids her parents so she doesn’t have to explain where car is.

    Also, she obviously can’t ask parents for money (because she is staying away) so she uses her absent friend’s checks to buy things.

    Eventually her charade catches up with her and like any pathological liar, she says one lie on top of another to try to explain her way out of an impossible situation (probably thinking she is beyond the point of no return). This refusal to come clean produces the majority of the despicable behavior she engages in – and the majority of the behavior the public wants to convict her on.

    Then, to further complicate her situation, she pairs up with a very inexperienced lawyer whom in my opinion has questionable motives. Rather than put her and the family on lock down and conduct damage control, he basically fuels the fire of hatred for Casey in the community with poor legal decisions, questionable statements, and an inability to focus on the big picture (obtaining the best – realistic – resolution for his client).

    And I realize that many of you pour the evidence religiously and probably have a million “bur’s and what if”s” you would like to throw at me to poke a hole in my theory. But just remember this, to defeat a First Degree Murder charge a defense attorney only needs to present an argument that raises a reasonable doubt as to what actually happened.

    And without solid proof of either how Caylee dies or of actual pre-meditation, an accidental theory is a very reasonable explanation and utilizes all the nasty post-arrest conduct (there is no such thing as post-meditation) people want to use to justify the First Degree Murder charge.

    So there you have it. You don’t have to agree with me, but realize that a properly selected jury will approach the case from an initially neutral, unbiased, and dispassionate point-of-view.

  32. niecey456 permalink
    September 28, 2009 9:16 am

    Very interesting, BUT, What about the duct tape??? I don’t believe that was done postmortem. To me it shows premeditation. I agree about the attorney and the mother, but remember also that Casey was acting perfectly normal, at the video store that night. There are also things in the docs on the evidence lists that have not been addressed and I believe the results are being withheld, and could show ultimately a “cause of death”. I think we have points we agree on. Interested to get your take on the duct tape.

  33. September 28, 2009 9:17 am

    Just realized, I left out the duct tape issue – so thanks. Two theories on that (nether is solid).

    (1) If you are trying to dispose of a body, you need to conceal it in somethings and a 23 year old girl working with a limp body (I apologize for the candidness) chances are will have problems securing it. And so tape could make it directly onto body by pure happenstance.

    (2) What if Casey really was trying to make the disappearance look like a kidnapping. Put duct tape where a kidnapper would.

    Also keep in mind all of this is just reasonable argument a lawyer would make based on the state’s evidence. I probably would not have Casey testify and would be for State to disprove my assertions. State cannot comment ina trial about a defendant’s failure to testify.

    Finally, I understand that no caring “sane” mother could dispose of her body. But Casey obviously is not sane – and probably was not at time.

    Well all this was fun, but will be my last response. I have my own client’s I need to develop some reasonable doubt for :)

    All the best.,
    Richard

    p.s. I agree, Mr. Baez is his own worse PR nightmare and source of many “leaks.”

  34. niecey456 permalink
    September 28, 2009 9:26 am

    Thanks Mr. Hornsby! It’s been a pleasure discussing this with you. :)

  35. itsamysterytome permalink*
    September 28, 2009 10:50 am

    Thank you Richard. You answered a lot of questions and gave some valuable information.

    Time will tell whether or not Baez will use one of your “reasonable” (but not air-tight! LOL) defense strategies or continue to use his client to further his own agenda. I’ve said it before, Baez will be the death of Casey…..

    And just so you know, I don’t want Casey to get the death penalty either. I DO want her to spend a very long life in jail.

  36. Dis permalink
    October 1, 2009 12:42 am

    Wow! I landed here from Marinade Dave’s site. Great Posts!!! Thanks Mr. Hornsby for answering questions and taking the time to help Biaz. LOL (I hope not) I’m still not buying the accident theory but it is cooking….I would like to think that a mother could not just kill her child but sadly we all know they can and do ALL THE TIME. I just want to see that justice is served and that the people involved in this can somehow put their lives back together. I think that she will be found guilty, even if the jury hears that accident scenario, the lies and behaviour before Caylee was reported missing and the lies and behaviour after she was reported missing will convict her. Caylee is by far her biggest victim but there are many others who have been victimized by Casey and they deserve justice as well.

  37. itsamysterytome permalink*
    October 1, 2009 7:25 am

    Dis

    Welcome! Hope you decide to come back and hang out again.

    There was a point where I believed the accident theory, and Richard’s scenario is a good one–she painted herself into a corner, and being the natural born liar that she is, she did and is doing the only thing she knows how to do. She’s trying to lie her way out of this. (After all, that’s always worked in the past!) To me, that could be believable–It would explain the 31 days,(sort of), the theft, and the ZG story, but it sure doesn’t explain her behavior. Her friends described it as normal. They had absolutely no idea that something was wrong–especially something as monumental as your child is dead. Wouldn’t you be acting strangely?

    And, at the point of knowing that you were caught and there was no way out—the police were not just gonna let this go and the state is charging you with murder, why not admit it was an accident and take a lesser charge instead of gambling with your life? Of course, her counsel may well be the reason she’s on her current path. Baez is looking to make himself the next Johnnie Cochran and apparently Lyon has obsessive-compulsive disorder. She’s obsessed with writing motions. IMO, Casey Anthony deserves her nightmare team. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer girl…………..

  38. GinnyG permalink
    October 1, 2009 12:07 pm

    Mystery, beautifully put. Everyone here has pretty much said what I wanted to say.

    Add to everything else the fact that it has been said that the stain in snot mom’s trunk seemed to be the outline of a child laying in a fetal position.

    It is NEVER acceptable to put a child in the trunk. NEVER! Just the fact that she did that, (even if Caylee were still alive today), would be grounds for child neglect/child abuse!

    The fact that snot mom’s parents never ever searched or coordinated a search for Caylee have convinced me that they knew early on what happened to Caylee…and that she was no longer alive. most family members actually *search* for a lost child, they don’t go home and do online searches or tell their PI’s to dig up dirt on people that are not sympathetic to their cause. If you read the discovery documents you will see just what spindy & georgeena were busy telling their PI to do.

    If a child is lost, you would use every available resource to find her, you would not have the PI trying to dig up dirt on snot mom’s friends, like Jesse Grund, (who loved Caylee as his own), Richard Grund, (accusing him of being in a cult that offers human sacrifices), or Amy, (who was snot mom’s friend til she stole from her), or Ricardo, who was snot mom’s lover just before she moved on to Tony Lazzaro, and then spindy also tried to get dirt & implicate Tony Lazzaro, snot mom’s last lover, or rather the last one before she was arrested. Who knows what went on once she was out on bail!

    Just the simple fact that there has been NO REMORSE from snot mom is enough to show she didn’t care. Her parents don’t seem to be remorseful either, they are too busy counting money from PHOTOS & VIDEOS plus donated money to care about anything but making sure that gravy train doesn’t stop!

  39. itsamysterytome permalink*
    October 1, 2009 8:01 pm

    GinnyG–

    And you know, Cindy was the one that scrubbed that stain in the trunk. If it looks like the outline of a child now, it sure as heck looked like it then. Cindy had to have seen it. She had to have seen it and then decided to try and get rid of it. Think of the implications of that.

  40. GinnyG permalink
    October 1, 2009 8:43 pm

    I just hope that LE takes all that into consideration & brings charges against the rest of this family & locks them up!

    Sure spindy knew! She washed snot mom’s clothing “because they stunk like the trunk.”

    She tampered with a possible witness by trying to get the towyard guy to change his story & say that the car did NOT stink when he picked it up!

    Her & georgeena both admitted on camera that they were familiar with the smell in snot mom’s trunk and knew it was decomp yet they washed it out anyway!

    Now they are both *working for the duh-fense” so in my opinion, they are no longer credible or good witnesses but HOSTILE witnesses, so why not slap charges on them & put them away?

    Its ludicrous how they have put other people in jail for lying to LE, but have failed to do that to the rest of the anthony’s?

    I can only ask WHY?

  41. October 18, 2009 11:21 pm

    Denial is Good at times.. Gives the Mind a chance to catch up with Reality. But Now this has gotten just Crazy in the true meaning of Crazy. I feel for the Anthonys Terrible loss But they need to get on with the truth as they 1st told it. Ca’s anger got the info. that was way to late. Sad,they took that long to look for Casey.

  42. itsamysterytome permalink*
    October 19, 2009 7:08 am

    GinnyG

    Sorry, I must have missed this post somehow. You are right, they have put other people in jail for perjury that is a lot less blatant than this. I don’t know why they have chosen not to pursue charges with the Anthonys–YET. I think maybe it is because they believe it could backfire on them and the public might run to their defense–feeling sorry for them because of the tragedy they’ve endured. It might even affect the case. That’s all I can think of.

  43. itsamysterytome permalink*
    October 19, 2009 7:10 am

    copper–I agree that denial is a mechanism to protect us from something to horrible to comprehend, but this has gone on way to long. Denial is a short-term mechanism to help you cope until you are strong enough to deal with the truth. It’s not a permanent condition, and I can’t believe the Anthonys are still in the throes of it.

  44. copper permalink
    October 19, 2009 10:12 am

    Thank you for ur reply Mystery..Been a while since ive been here.. Love this site and all youve done!! thank you for sharing.

  45. itsamysterytome permalink*
    October 19, 2009 11:01 am

    Thank you, Copper! Join us anytime. You’ll get more interaction on the current post.

  46. copper permalink
    October 19, 2009 11:44 am

    Does Denial hide eveidence that could possibly have given Caylee a decent burial?
    They knew that it was already to late to save her once they got that car.
    Isnt this worse than Conspiracy after the fact ?
    When will this case close after Trail begins… or , anyone know how long the murder trail will last?

  47. copper permalink
    October 19, 2009 12:04 pm

    Mystery , do you think that if… there were dead flies and maggots in that trunk like the A’s have said.. would they have come from decompostion of a dead body ?

  48. itsamysterytome permalink*
    October 20, 2009 3:28 pm

    copper–both things you are saying are conspiracy after the fact. If they began to hide evidence or cover up as soon as they got the car because they realized what had happened, then that is a conspiracy to cover up after the fact.

    As to how long the trial will last, I have no idea. The OJ Simpson trial lasted for 134 days. So, I would assume it would last for several months at least. But, I could be wrong.

    And, yes, I think the maggots were there because there had been a decomposing dead body in the car trunk. That’s only my opinion and I’m no expert, but that’s what I think.

  49. copper permalink
    October 21, 2009 8:53 am

    Thank you for that answer Mystery.. If.. ur not an Expert…. Sure sounds better than the attorneys on this case.. You gave a clear intelligent answer as always.. thanks again, Ive been wondering about that question since the day the A’s stated that the whole mess in that trunk was maggots due to rotting pizza. Seems down on the death farm thing in TN. they proved that the pizza would have dehydrated as it did. Leaving no insects from the pizza.

  50. itsamysterytome permalink*
    October 21, 2009 12:40 pm

    You know, who knows what George and Cindy cleaned up in the trunk of that car before they made that 911 call. I’m reading Cindy’s depo right now, and apparently there were 2 trashbags in the car, not just one. I had read in the discovery that it was noted that George had lied about where he found the trashbag. He had first said it was in the back seat not the trunk. I remember having a conversation with someone that that was news to us–we had always thought the trashbag was in the trunk–maybe there was a 2nd bag. Well, sounds like there was.

    My point of all that is what exactly was in the trunk or one of those bags that maggots would still be there? Maggots feed off rotting meat or decomposing flesh for the most part. If there had been food in the pizza box, it would have dried up long before and the maggots, I assume would have died.
    What else could it have been besides decomp fluid?

  51. copper permalink
    October 21, 2009 5:24 pm

    There is an insect? that eats on flesh. there called death mites I think. Im wondering if.. technically speaking (way out of my leauge) That the air in the trunk was contamited by unknown to (lots of u with airated microscopic creepy lil things that live on decomosing flesh in their Bio world.. If that woulda / coulda made the maggots stay longer than the “dehydrated” pizza.
    Did anyone understand what I’m trying to ask? It just seems that
    Sin dey and Georgie boy would have known intellectually better than to try and pull that rotten story. no pun intended.

  52. copper permalink
    October 21, 2009 5:28 pm

    I think I should have added that death mites ” eat dead flesh,, as the body decomposes. Help again.. I no there is an answer but my lack of medical ,forensenic terminology is lacking to answer this thought / question.

  53. itsamysterytome permalink*
    October 22, 2009 11:17 am

    copper-

    Not real sure what you are asking but below is the life cycle of a maggot. We don’t know what stage the maggots were in when found in the trunk of the car. We do know that there was decomp fluid in the trunk. We also know there were coffin flies in the trunk.

    1. The eggs are present in clumps of up to 300 when they are laid by an adult fly.They hatch within a day
    2. The larvae (1st instar) feed on fluid exuded from the body in the beginning and then they migrate into the body.
    From the time they hatch to their first molt takes 1 day.
    3. The larvae (2nd instar) move around in the maggot mass. The time between the first molt and the 2nd molt is 1 day.
    4.The larvae still move around in the mass though they are greatly increased in size. The second molt to pre-pupa takes 2 days.
    5.Pre-pupa still moves in the mass and greatly increase more in size. They then move away from the corpse to seek a suitable pupation site. (usually in the soil) They do not feed during this period. Pre-pupa to pupa takes 4 days.
    6.The pupa then undergoes transformation from larval body form to adult fly. They do not feed during this time. Pupa to emergence as an adult fly takes 10 days. The adult fly mates when it emerges and then feeds on protein from body fluids. It then lays new eggs in the corpse. The emergence as an adult fly to egg laying is 2 days.

    The above depends on the species and the climate and the times may be slower or longer.

  54. copper permalink
    October 22, 2009 11:38 am

    Thank You Mystery !! I do believe that answered my question. And better than anyone I have asked ..
    Another reason I love ur site!!
    No one knows what we would do in a situation like this unless we went thru it. I hope the A’s get there heads and hearts prepared to see Casey behind bars the rest of their lives. Thank you again for ur professional answer .

  55. copper permalink
    November 22, 2009 1:08 pm

    Now that the creepy crawly insects have told on casey..They come up with the guy that found caylee..The dream team is running out of sleep time and needs to wake up here..with allowing yet ANOTHER LAWYER IN ON THIS CASE.. IS ONLY A PUBLIC SOMETHING OR OTHER.. tHEY TEACH AT THE SAME SCHOOL AND NEEDS THIS INFO UNDER THEIR TEACHY BELTS..while CMA is dumb enuff to actuallt believe she still has a chance to get by with all her lies..
    so big deal that roy kronk has ex wives.. and luvs to play video games.. duhhhh ladies,, hes ur ex already . He tried to inform LE and one was actually fired due to not following thru? How long can this go on ppl..is her trail still on for theft .. if so when…

  56. copper permalink
    November 22, 2009 1:14 pm

    Mystery , you have been so right with all ur answers to us and with all thats happened since… I asked about the “coffin” flies.. It seemed to me that LE stayed on the site where caylee was found that surely there had to be post mortem bugs that would tell on casey. I think that one was true to the bug. this case is a side winder for sure. Do you know when either of the trails will start? If Casey is charged with theft 1st. will she spend the rest of her time in prison or county jail while she awaits her murder trail? all ur info is appreciated and thank you tons for sharing ur knowledge..

  57. May 25, 2011 9:36 pm

    I agree that Casey killed her daughter, and that it was premeditated. However, the thing that concerns me is what a sentence of “life in prison”, may mean to other parents who want to live the party life, and follow suit. A few years ago, I cannot remember where, but a woman claimed that her daughter was taken while she was placing the little girl in her car seat. They were at a park, and the mom said that somebody came up behind her and knocked her out.

    Casey has set a new horrible standard, that is being copied. The woman above, is an example. To most of us, life in prison, without the possibility of parole, would be enough to deter anybody from committing murder. However, there are some young parents out there, who are so overwhelmed that Casey’s jail sentence does not look too bad. Think about it. The economy is horrible. Young people are struggling to find jobs. I am sure some of them could envision a worse case scenario than being locked up for life. They eat three times a day, don’t have to work, watch tv, exercise, read. For some, it would be a preferable choice.

    I believe that the death penalty has proven to be a very successful deterrent to murder. It works in Texas, and many other states in our union. I do not make this statement lightly, but in this case, that child was murdered. An innocent life, wiped out, without provocation. If we, as a nation, refuse to take responsibility for those who cannot protect themselves, then we should not complain when such horrors arrive on our own door steps.

    The death penalty is called for in this case. Call it whatever you may, but as a nation, as a decent, compassionate nation,…as human beings, we cannot allow a child murderer to sit in jail for life, because we are too afraid to do the right thing. If we fail to enforce our own laws, we will live to suffer the results. Other mothers, and yes, fathers, will commit this same horrible crime, and gladly face life in jail, without parole. That is my biggest fear….

  58. May 25, 2011 9:43 pm

    I forgot to mention that the mother who claimed her daughter was abducted, while she was placing her in her car seat,…if I remember correctly, that poor baby was found on the side of the road. Dead. Disposed of in a very similar manner as in Casey’s horrific murder of her daughter. Is this something we can live with??? The murder of innocents, resulting in the murderer sitting in jail, at the taxpayer’s expense, for life? Is that justice? No, it is not! These children could not defend themselves. They loved and trusted their parents,…and that parent committed the most horrible, deplorable act one could ever conceive. That parent deserves the death penalty, and we, as a nation will all sleep better knowing that if another parent is considering a copy-cat murder,…most likely, they don’t want to die,…only their child! Think about it….I don’t want that. I don’t want to live in a country that, in essence, slaps the hand of a child murderer! I don’t think any of you does either. Do the right thing here! Deterrence is better than punishment, and the death penalty is a great deterrence to the murder of innocent children.

  59. RANDEE permalink
    May 29, 2011 9:25 am

    Seems to me that Baez and Casey would have been more credible if they didn’t involve George in the accidental drowning (although they needed someone else to blame and dispose of Caylee). My question is, in these types of cases, how much do attorneys make up the defense, and how much comes from the defendant?

  60. jc cox permalink
    June 2, 2011 12:23 am

    OK – Poll Time – Cast your Vote:
    I say she’ll be convicted on charges 2 – 8
    Sentenced to 30+ years

  61. JustJH permalink
    June 5, 2011 9:37 am

    To jc cox: I believe she will not be convicted on pre-meditated murder, 1st degree, and will get 30+ years. I believe it was an accident as mystery has predicted, and she planned on a kidnapping theory, thus the reason for the duct tape, and her going to “another place” to cope with the loss. I believe she is pathological and unable to understand or cope with the truth, and has been that way all her life. I believe her parents know this, but only understood that their daughter was a liar and unreliable. Cindy was constantly badgering her daughter with criticism and felt only disgust with her irresponsible behavior, rather than help her with psychological treatment. This constant criticism drove Casey to try and cover up her irresponsibility that resulted in an accident and avoid the wrath of her mother. This is a case of the most dysfunctional family I’ve ever heard of, and I thought mine was the worst. As to the death penalty, I do not feel the death penalty is justified if they cannot prove that she premeditated the murder of her child, and so far I’ve not seen any evidence or testimony from her associates that this happened. I thought Jesse Grund’s statement about her character and his belief that Casey would try to cover up an accident to avoid her mother’s harsh criticism was eye opening for me. He seemed to know her best, and gave an accurate account of his insight into her personality/character. Casey is a danger to society as any psychopath is, and should not be allowed out to possibly exact revenge on those that did not support her theories/lies.

  62. JustJH permalink
    June 5, 2011 9:48 am

    Another comment: life in prison is what I’m hoping for, as I believe that will be a far more difficult sentence for Casey, as she will be in the “company” of other mothers and will have to live with their unique form of justice. On death row, she will be isolated from the general community, and will be able to dance to music, read, live her pretend life with friends and lovers, etc. Life will be as she dreams it to be, not as inmates want it to be. She could be on death row for many, many years to come with all the appeals she will be able to make concerning her inadequate legal counsel and misrepresentation.

  63. Robert Miglio & Tom Webb permalink
    July 3, 2011 9:27 pm

    Sorry all smoke and mirrors.
    The girl has huge mental problems but that isn’t murder.
    She is an easy mark to burn at the stake….facts …facts…facts.
    They should be looking at George.

  64. Tommy permalink
    July 5, 2011 4:52 pm

    Guess not — looks like all of ya’ll were WRONG!!

  65. July 7, 2011 10:24 am

    Apparently, no it can’t.

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